Talk:Ambulance
See also Talk:Ambulance (1979). Section headers After some thought, I essentially undid the section header changes made by an unregistered user. My reasons are multiple, so I spell them out here (numbers are for reference and do not imply relative value). # The point of the page, as I understand it, is to disambiguate between different ambulance models that Matchbox has released - users looking for a model they know of as "Ambulance" will come to this page, where they will (hopefully) find the info they need to get to the page for the vehicle they are interested in. # The upper section does include some generic models, but the 1996 ambulance is a Ford, so we can't call that section "generic". # I'm not convinced that the Bedford and S & S Ambulances are/were officially licensed, as I don't think that licensing was done in the 1960s and 1970s, when those models were sold. So, I don't think that we can call the lower section "licensed". # The 1996 ambulance was officially licensed by Ford, so if we have a "generic" and a "licensed" section, we'd have to move that model. But, this would dusrupt the division of the page into the models called "ambulance," and those with more specific names (see point 1). # Licensing is particularly complex for the 1979 (1977) ambulance, as it was originally released with no further description, nor does the casting have any insignia indicating a manufacturer, but in 1999 it was released as a "Chevy Ambulance". I don't have a card or box in front of me, but there may have been licensing issues involving GM and/or Chevrolet for that issue. --Badger16 14:25, May 24, 2012 (UTC) Categories I've now twice changed the Category "Professional Cars" back to "Professional Car". My reasons are two: # The category name is Category:Professional Car - that's where the explanation of the category is, and where other pages link. There's nothing in Category:Professional Cars - I just looked. # Just as Category:Ambulance is singular, so is Professional Car --Badger 16 (not signed in) ::I have now just changed the Category "Professional Car" back to "Professional Cars" for the second time. The reasons for this were decided by members on this wiki long ago. You'll see categories such as "Chevrolet Vehicles" or "Emergency Vehicles" because the plural is the standard that was chosen long ago. Don't blame me for trying to unify or standardize the wiki. I'm just trying to keep it all standardized so it will be more functional and useful. My name is Kenny and I am signed in when I''' make edits. HaarFager 21:28, May 25, 2012 (UTC) :::I have much better things to do with my time than to go around fixing everybody's mistakes. HaarFager 21:29, May 25, 2012 (UTC) ::::My name is Roger. Good to meet you, Kenny. And I don't blame you for trying to standardize things. In fact, I'm happy to help you do so. But I do blame you for holding people to rules they can't know. When I started at this wiki, I looked at the Help pages and Community pump, and there's nothing there about how categories are to be named. Or if there is, I couldn't find it. So, I based my category names off of what I found. Category:Ambulance was singular, so that's what I made Professional Car. Now I see that there is a Professional Cars category, but it refers to something different. Maybe that is a category that this page should belong to, but then both category names would need to be kept. As for being signed in or not, I can't recall my user password. It's written down at home. But I had a few minutes at work, so I thought I'd check in and see how things are here. There was no attempt at subterfuge, I explained my edits in Edit Summaries and on talk pages, and I signed my name on talk pages, as I do again here. --Badger16 :::::Hello, Roger, my name is Kenny. Once I found out it was you, I immediately removed the block which I had mistakely placed on what I thought was a vandal. As far as categories go, I don't really see much of a need for them and don't understand them. I just do what I'm told. Sorry for the confusion. I thought you said there was no category for Professional Cars? I only bring this up to point out how confusing categories are for me, not to cause problems or stir up trouble with you. You seem quite intelligent and approachable, so I'm positive we'll figure this out in a good manner. Thank you for responding in such a level-headed manner. Kenny HaarFager 03:06, May 27, 2012 (UTC) Headers I still highly disagree about your ideas about headers. Other ambulances does not make any sence, because they are licensed models. You either change the header, include a description, or include other ambulances, such as Stretcha Fetcha into that category. Models released as Ambulance is fine, but if you seriously does not want to change the headers, then follow the header, so include other ambulances, such as Stretcha Fetcha, etc. This is a wiki to everybody. Everybody has the right to show what they think what fits into each category. You cannot stop someone if their work does not fit your mind. :Hi. Thank you for now joining the discussion. My objections to your edits are discussed at length at the top of this page, but I will reiterate here in part (numbers are for reference, not to imply relative value): :# The page is at its heart a disambiguation page. If someone makes a link to Ambulance, it will come to this page, so this page needs to be set up to properly direct readers to the appropriate page. That is why it starts out with all of the models released under the name Ambulance. :#It is also possible for readers to search for an vehicle that they know only as an ambulance. That search will bring them to this page, so this page needs to include a list of all ambulances, regardless of the names they were released under, to serve these readers. :#''Licensed'' means that Matchbox approached the manufacturer of the prototype vehicle and received their legal permission to make a Matchbox vehicle that looks like the actual (prototype) vehicle. The legal document that allows Matchbox to make that model is a license. To take the example of the 1996 Ambulance, Matchbox received a license from the Ford Motor Company to make that vehicle look like a Ford. But the name of the model, when released, was merely Ambulance. It isn't generic, so we can't call it generic. But it belongs in the first table for the reasons I give in points 1 & 2. :#The 1977 ambulance, which was called Ambulance for the first 21 years that it was available and is a generic model with no specific prototype, is even more complicated, since in 1999 it was listed as a Chevy. Since Chevy is a licensed trademark, Matchbox may have had to get a license to label their ambulance a Chevy, but I don't know. Labeling the 1977 ambulance as either licensed or nonlicensed is potentially incorrect. :#Similarly, I'm uncertain about the licensing on the models released before the 1990s. Intellectual property law (the branch of law that governs whether Matchbox would have to receive a license to make a particular model) has changed greatly over the past several decades, and as I neither know the law for that period, nor do I have source documents that show what Matchbox did (or didn't) do, I hesitate to call, for instance, the Bedford Ambulance a licensed model. :Regarding Stretcha Fetcha, I'll admit that I'm a bit uncertain as to your concerns. Could you explain a bit further? If you believe that it should be included on this page, then we are in agreement, and I have included it under "Other Ambulances". :Finally, as for vandalism: if an editor objects to your edits, explains why on the article's talk page (citing reasons related to accuracy and clarity), goes to your talk page and invites you to join the discussion, but you ignore the discussion and redo what was objected to, then I do consider that to be vandalism. --Badger16 00:33, June 3, 2012 (UTC) Proposal from 173.21.234.15 The following proposal was left on my talk page: Hi. I want to let you know that the Ambulance page is not a disambiugation. A disambiugation is when multiple pages share the same name, not when they are based on the same thing. The'' Ambulance section is a disambiugation, but a suggestion is to make a separate page, with the models listed at ''ambulance ''in a disambiugation page. You just have to list the models, and type the disambig template. 17:56, June 6, 2012 (UTC)173.21.234.15 17:56, June 6, 2012 (UTC) I have moved it here to be seen by other editors. :'Disagree - Though the page is more extensive than most disambiguation pages, it is, essentially, about models either released under the name Ambulance, or that readers might look for under the name Ambulance. Admittedly, the air ambulances and some of the support vehicles would probably be searched for under other names, but they do fit the theme of the page. --Badger16 (talk) 01:32, June 7, 2012 (UTC) ::I've never seen the need for disambiguation pages. When one types in "Ambulance" in the search box on the left of every page, it brings up everything related to ambulances. I've always felt that was good enough. Besides, that's what the search was created to do. Meh. HaarFager 03:32, June 7, 2012 (UTC) :::I think their origin is in pages that might have the same title. If I link from List of 2005 Matchbox to Ambulance, I probably mean the 2005 model. But if an article on the 1977 ambulance is there instead, my readers are going to be confused or misled. --Badger16 (talk) 03:42, June 7, 2012 (UTC) ::::That's why, as a good editor, you should not put the wrong link in the wrong place. I've placed links to pages I've created and they worked correctly. Then later, I click on that same link and it takes me to somewhere else totally different, such as an ambiguation page. That's what mainly happens when people go and try to rename a vehicle with a name such as "Ambulance (1995)," when it was originally just named "Ambulance." I suppose we have Mattel to thank for these confusing issues, for it is them that reuses names for casting variations of the same vehicle, or even reusing the same name for a totally different casting! Sometimes, I don't know what to think. HaarFager 23:05, June 7, 2012 (UTC) :::::I can also see what this unnamed user is trying to say about the page we have now not being a regular disambiguation page. It seems to be more than one. I would ask that a page I created over on the Hot Wheels Wiki be looked at to see what I mean and what I think this unnamed user is trying to say. It's not really a disambiguation page, per se, or is it? Here it is, a page about "Dodge Chargers." http://hotwheels.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge_Charger HaarFager 23:09, June 7, 2012 (UTC) ::::::I do try to make sure that my links go where they are supposed to, but it's now always easy, as it requires knowing the name of the destination pages. Sometimes my first draft has links to disambiguation pages - I write the page and in preview the links are blue, but I can't follow them in preview - links don't work there. Even if they did, if my page has several links, it gets to be very tangled and confusing trying to follow them all before I've actually submitted the edit. In any event, once I submit my changes I go back and follow my links - if I get to a disambiguation page I rewrite or pipe my original link, if I know which page it should go to (so far not an issue on this wiki). But if I create a link to Ambulance and it instead goes here, as the Ambulance page used to be, then I have to manually look up the other ambulance models. Easy enough with the ambulances (though troublesome), but if I'm linking to a dump truck, I might have to search under several terms before I find the correct article - dump truck, haul truck, tipper, etc. So as an editor, disambiguation pages enable me to quickly find the page I need. And this assumes that I'm willing to do the legwork, which some editors aren't - they create the link and that's it, and I think it's better to have links going to a disambiguation page than to a page on the wrong model. At least with a disambiguation page the reader has a path to the right page. As for the current page not being a regular disambiguation page, that's true, it isn't. It was at one time, but I'll admit that I've rather taken it beyond that. I think that the additional information is useful to the reader, though, which is why I added it. I think that stripping the page down to a bare bones disambiguation page would be a big step backwards.--Badger16 (talk) 00:36, June 8, 2012 (UTC) :::::::I'm not insinuating you don't do a thorough job of it at all. What I'm trying to say that if somebody needs to insert a link somewhere on a page they're creating, that link should already be very active and exactly what you needed to link to; and important enough to need linking to. Or else why create a page that needs a link to whatever it is you're linking to, if what you're linking to isn't very important? For instance, and I only use you because it's handy. You said, "I do try to make sure that my links go where they are supposed to, but it's now always easy, as it requires knowing the name of the destination pages." Why would you not know the exact name of the destination page if it was important enough of a link to be needed on another page? Using the page I spoke about, The "Dodge Charger" page I created over on the Hot Wheels Wiki, is a page like that really even needed? I don't think I'm explaining myself very well at all. I just don't know sometimes. HaarFager 03:27, June 8, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::It's a shame we're trying to figure this out by these messages. If we were face-to-face I'm sure we'd have it figured out in five minutes or less. I think that the uses of your Dodge Charger page are many: # if someone creates a link to Dodge Charger, it will go to that page, rather than a given model, preventing readers from winding up at the wrong model # if someone wants to see all of the Dodge Chargers that Hot Wheels issued, there they are (there is some overlap with Categories here, but pages allow for more discussion of the contents - see Peterbilt, for instance, and a sort of ordering or grouping, as here at Ambulance) # no decision has to be made (and possibly fought over) about which casting gets to be at the page entitled Dodge Charger #if a reader is searching for a Dodge Charger, but doesn't know which one, the disambig page gives them a place to work from - they just work their way through the list until they find what they're looking for. On this Wiki, the Cement Mixer page plays a similar role. (I was surprised how many cement mixers there have been, actually, and I don't know that I found them all.) Finally, I don't think that they harm anything, and since some people find them useful, perhaps that's enough of a reason to have them? Not sure. I do note that the user who proposed this change hasn't made any contribution to the discussion, in spite of making many other edits on the wiki. My position is to keep Ambulance as it is, but perhaps I'm biased, having spent a bit of time crafting it. What's your position? --Badger16 (talk) 02:35, June 9, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::Basically, my stance is that the more chances for people to find what they're looking for is a good thing, so pages like this do help. HaarFager 07:25, June 9, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::No one else seems to have an opinion, so I am closing this proposal and removing the notice from the article. Proposal to change the page fails to gather enough support and does not pass. -Badger16 (talk) 20:26, July 8, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::::I don't think it's because nobody has an opinion, but that nobody can be bothered to care enough to respond. But, it does get tiresome to ask for everybody's opinion and then waiting and waiting and nobody ever responds. I was hoping for more opinions on the Community Guidelines page and so far, you're the only one that's responded, Roger. Oh, well. HaarFager 11:02, July 9, 2012 (UTC)